spraying my Jeep Cherokee

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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by ehall on January 8th 2009, 6:30 pm

Started wetsanding today. I got the big runs, most of the dust motes, and a lot of the orange peel removed, but am not sure what to do about the small leopard spots



That is after 1500 overall sanding.... I used 1200 to get rid of a bunch of that stuff (the upper half of the frame that is satin colored) while hitting the runs, but it is really aggressive. Will that stuff come out in polish, or should I use 2000 or 1500 grit to rub that out first?

I am still resisting another coat of paint for a few reasons (I don't want to wetsand again, I'm low on mixed paint, etc), although I am tempted to give another pass with the detail gun after I get the bugs out of the first set, since the detail gun did a really good job of atomizing the paint.
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by ehall on January 9th 2009, 4:43 pm

Studying about it some, I decided that this texturing is basically just a light orange peel that didn't form up, so just have to sand through it. I switched to 1500 grit so that it would not be as aggressive with the paint.



Second pass



Fourth pass



The temperature got into the mid-30s this afternoon so I had to quit early. Only got a few of the areas done, and it looks like it will take a couple of days to wetsand the whole jeep with 1500. Yeah it takes a long time but the results are good, and it's the right thing to do.

I will definitely have to put two more coats of paint on the jeep when I'm done with this, and then I will go over it again with 2000 grit.
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by megaglow_z on January 10th 2009, 12:49 am

Looking good man!!
You will be glad you went over the truck as a whole in the end man.
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by ehall on January 13th 2009, 11:41 pm

I'm finally done with wetsanding, although I will probably need to revisit a couple of spots. I left the roof alone and will see if I can polish through the texturing there, if not I'll hit it with 2000 grit when I smooth out the next coat.





Weather forecast is showing near- or below-freezing for the foreseeable future so it might be a while before I can do anything more.
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by Useless on January 15th 2009, 5:23 pm

Nice progress, can't wait to see more!
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by ehall on January 23rd 2009, 8:38 pm

Temps were supposed to hit 50 today so I painted again. I applied one coat on the seams and folds with the detail gun, then after that tacked I applied a full body coat with the big gun, and then put another coat on the seams and folds while the body coat was still wet. The paint looks pretty good, nice and level, but more runs than last time.

Here you can see where the seams and folds were painted before the whole body was shot



couple pics after everything was sprayed





Tomorrow sometime I'll pull it out and move it into the other garage bay so that the owner can have access to his lift. It'll have to set up for a week before I can do anything more to it.
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by ehall on January 24th 2009, 3:08 pm

Morning-after inspection made me pretty happy. The paint is really smooth and has a nice deep gloss on it. Almost hate to wetsand it, however there are enough defects that it will need to be hit on. Also the first round had the same appearance right after painting but once it cured up it had goosebumps all over, and I kind of expect this one to do the same thing.







There are some really bad runs that will have to be sanded out





Forecast says weather will get back into the 40s on Thursday, which should be enough time for the paint to cure

What are people's recommendations for wetsanding this? I am thinking I will use 1200 on the runs and then 2000 to finish, but if those goosebumps come back I will have to muscle the whole thing again.

How much work will the rubbing compound do?
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by retired plumber on January 25th 2009, 1:59 am

Put some masking tape down along side of the runs and then GENTLY scrape the tops off with a single edge razor (yes, I know,I know but it does work) and then I would use 800 or 1000 to level the run close. The tape keeps you from going too deep. Then remove the tape and proceed from there.
How much work do you want to do? The more sanding you do by hand with progressive finer grits mean less work with the buffer and compound. I have buffed after sanding with 1200 grit and it looked good up close. Definately not show quality but for a daily driver it looked nice (the truck in my avatar).
The goose bumps you mention is orange peel as you know and when the whole thing is dull without any shiny spots then the peel is gone. I'm afraid you will have to sand your roof also because the buffing pad will also get down in the peel and shine the whole thing. It will cut it a bit but not much. I would do the roof with 1200 and buff.
I like the color. That will be a sharp looking jeep when you get r done.
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by megaglow_z on January 27th 2009, 12:35 am

I can attest to the razor blade method, it works very well indeed, just have to be careful and go easy.
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by ehall on February 2nd 2009, 10:00 pm

The weather got up to 60 the last two days so I spent some time working on the paint. First thing to notice is that the paint still looked pretty good, nice and smooth, although it had gotten more of a clay feeling after setting for a week. Also it has a kind of wax coating, see how the water was beading and puddling instead of sheeting



However as soon as I put any kind of abrasive action on the paint at all, the "wax" came off and revealed orange peel underneath. This is exactly the same as happened with the previous coat.



All that crap must be wetsanded smooth. As you can see, once the "wax" was removed and the goosebumps were sanded down the water sheeted instead of beading



It took a whole week of wetsanding with 1500 grit on the last one, and I didn't want to do that again, so I busted out the 800 grit and went to town. With the 800 grit I was able to do the both sides in about eight hours, and only have to do the hatch and roof now



This is really odd behavior. I don't know if the "wax" is normal for Rustoleum (I've never noticed it before) or if it's the Penetrol additive or what, but it's basically preventing me from doing a finish spray. At this point I am thinking that I will just apply spot repairs with a roller and then wetsand those with 800 to match, then proceed up to 1200, 1500 and 2000 before polish. I am tempted to use the roller method to apply two top coats but I am nearly out of paint and will have to order more.

Oh and the razor method does work, mostly, although some of the deeper runs wanted to tear a little, so I am mostly sanding them and just using the razor for assistance.
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by ehall on February 8th 2009, 10:27 am

Finished wetsanding yesterday, and found a few places where the paint was getting really goofy



I don't know what that is. I guess it's the hardener.

So far this is turning into a real disaster
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by retired plumber on February 8th 2009, 11:47 am

Looks to me like you are getting down to primer. 800 grit is pretty aggresive and it is easy to take off too much. I know because I have done it before mad3 . This is just a suggestion without actually seeing the spot. Put some more paint on it and use a finer grit paper next time. I know its a lot of work but which would you rather have, a $$$$$ pro job or a cheeeep one you did with your sweat equity? Just my .02.
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by ehall on February 8th 2009, 4:01 pm

It's not primer, it's spots of hard and shiny something. They are on the hood, roof, doors, etc.
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by Useless on February 10th 2009, 11:18 pm

I think you've gone down to the layer below. I've seen a few people do that so far, it's been one of my biggest concerns about this whole process. I think the thicker coats you get by spraying rather than rolling helps avoid it, but it still can happen.

I believe I would've started buffing here:


I know you had some "boogers" in the paint to work on here and there, but I feel like you should be able to smooth things out with the buffer from this stage.

Let us know how things turn out from here, I think you can still save it thumbs up
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by ehall on February 19th 2009, 2:14 pm

Forecast today was for 50f so I decided to try masking and patching where I'd sanded through the paint. I put down some tape, and lifted it off to move it, and the paint came off with it



At this point there doesn't really seem to be anything left on this job. I'm going to have to strip everything off and shoot it with real automotive paint.
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by megaglow_z on February 20th 2009, 12:04 am

Man, it has to be what you mixed it with,
I taped ALL over my paint when i did my 2 tone, one week after spraying and never got any peel.
i did not primer the whole truck, just where i did body work.
Dont know what to tell you man, that just sucks.
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by retired plumber on February 20th 2009, 2:24 am

I am going to second what megeglow said. The cocktail you used for thinner was really wierd. I'm thinking the hardener reacted with the penetrol. Waxy feeling would have been a red flag to me. Most of the people here have just used regular paint thinner and never had a problem. After seeing the paint come up with the tape I agree that the only thing to do is strip it. Sorry to have to tell you that. If you have any of the rusto left you can try a small spot with regular thinner and see what happens before you spend the big bucks on bc/cc auto paint. Just a suggestion. Good luck.
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by Coconut Eater on February 20th 2009, 11:01 pm

megaglow_z wrote:Man, it has to be what you mixed it with,
I taped ALL over my paint when i did my 2 tone, one week after spraying and never got any peel.
i did not primer the whole truck, just where i did body work.
Dont know what to tell you man, that just sucks.

I third that. I used regular mineral spirits (odorless from Wal Mart) and mine is hard like granite, going on 3 years now.

Sucks, but you can strip the hood with a razor blade in no time and try it with good old fashioned rusto and mineral spirits.

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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by megaglow_z on February 22nd 2009, 5:19 am

retired plumber wrote:I am going to second what megeglow said. The cocktail you used for thinner was really wierd. I'm thinking the hardener reacted with the penetrol. Waxy feeling would have been a red flag to me. Most of the people here have just used regular paint thinner and never had a problem. After seeing the paint come up with the tape I agree that the only thing to do is strip it. Sorry to have to tell you that. If you have any of the rusto left you can try a small spot with regular thinner and see what happens before you spend the big bucks on bc/cc auto paint. Just a suggestion. Good luck.
Mike

Agreed, your going to have to strip the whole thing anyway. NO WAY would i paint over that unstable paint. Its probibly going to peel later anyway.
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by ehall on February 22nd 2009, 7:15 pm

Man, it has to be what you mixed it with,
The problem with the paint peeling is almost certainly due to the Rustoleum Automotive Primer, which is intended for urethane top-coat not enamel. As I said in the first post, "I have painted other stuff with the Rustoleum Automotive Primer and the stuff is very good at sticking to metal but not as great at sticking to paint" I asked if people thought I should use something else and got nothing.... Now ya'll are blaming everything else....

Here is what I've figured out, for whoever else tries this and runs across the thread

If you are painting with a sprayer, there is no benefit to using Rustoleum, and there are lots of potential downsides (see thread). Real two-stage automotive paint will be easier to apply, will set and cure better, be easier to maintain, there are a lot more knowledgeable people to tap into, and the upfront cost just isn't that different. After all the prep work, paint is only like 5-10% of the time investment. With Rustoleum, you will also have to do a lot more post-paint work (see thread) which means that it is way way more time consuming over traditional two-stage automotive paint in the end.

Naptha and Acetone have pretty much the same flash times. I didn't notice any difference between them in paint behavior. It is possible that some of my problems are due to reactions between them but I seriously doubt it, since the doors and the hood had the same issues, and they had different 1st coat mixes on different days.

The Penetrol probably contributed to the wax layer, but it doesn't seem to be the source of it, since the regular Rustoleum that I brushed on for spot repairs did the same thing. I will say that the Penetrol made the paint flow and level a lot better--when I had runs from the sprayer I just smudged them out with a roller and they were gone when the paint dried, but the straight Rustoleum and Acetone mix had all kinds of brush and roller marks in it.

Since nobody else has apparently seen the waxy buildup, it may be that the paint went bad from being out in the cold. Having said that, I suspect that a lot of my issues were made worse by the cold weather, so would strongly recommend doing this work in 60+ degree weather.

As far as that goes, use a real paint booth if you are spraying. You need to see runs which requires lots of lighting. You need ventilation which requires lots of air movement. Using the garage produced a bunch of problems... I was tripping over the hose, the floor got sticky, etc., all of which pissed me off and made me want to get out of there faster.

Don't use the Rustoleum Automotive Primer. If you want to use a primer, use the Rusty Metal stuff.
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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by Techmaven on February 23rd 2009, 12:25 am

Did you block your primer before painting? In your last attempt, how many coats did you shoot? This pic shows sanding through the most recent color application to the one before it. "Same paint different application times".




I did a test panel with rusty metal primer blocked with 400 and then shot Rustoleum red thinned 3to1 with acetone through my Campbell Hausfeld turbine and it's holding like iron. I'm gonna do some testing with it..Tape gas, etc.

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Re: spraying my Jeep Cherokee

Post by retired plumber on February 23rd 2009, 1:55 am

I used to frequent a couple of auto paint forums and there was always somebody asking why their paint did funny stuff, especially premixed colors (not mixed on the spot by a paint store). It usually boiled down to paint that had frozen. I remember several years ago a trucking company let a semi sit for a couple of days (stuck in the snow) that was full of polyurathane paint from a major auto paint supplier. Seems the paint froze and the bad paint jobs were finally traced back to the trucker. Cost them a bunch of money. I don't remember everything about it but the paint didn't stick well and there was something about the pigment also. Sorry, don't tremember anymore because its been a while so, yes, you can get bad paint or you might have let it freeze somehow or it might have been frozen in the delivery truck. Who knows.
I still would be suspicious of the cocktail you mixed for a thinner tho. Just my two cents. Good luck with what ever you decide to do.
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