Acetone diary

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Acetone diary

Post by tpirsig on June 18th 2009, 4:57 pm

Acetone Diary Ė day one:

The car: a 1987 Volvo 760 turbo, bought eight months ago, non-running and with some rear-end body rust and a severely-floods water leak, $250. This is Volvo turbo #5 around here. The leak turned out to have been coming in through the rusted trunk and then following the wiring harnesses to the main interior. The trunk, after a complete gutting, is now repaired with fiberglass. Thatís the reason itís in the garage. Seemed a shame to not get some paint on the panels too, with everything all stripped.

Iím using acetone instead of mineral spirits because where I live, mineral spirits take way too long to dry. In another post elsewhere on this forum I described how the paint stayed tacky for days and days. That paint took over two weeks to dry! affraid

Meanwhile the paint itself, if undiluted, would dry overnight. So obviously some other type of thinner was needed. By the way, the mineral spirits I used was the ďodorlessĒ type, perhaps thereís a chemical additive thatís screwing up the dry time?

But I think itís just the environment. I live in a rainforest in Hawaii, far from the beaches. Itís wet here a lot, even when the sun is out. Thereís also a high sulfur component in the air from time to time, thanks to the friendly neighborhood volcano, which does things like eat bare aluminum mercilessly. Iím thinking I should get a humidity meter (humidostat? humidometer?) just so I can track the moisture level. (When I sprayed on some undercoating, the can said ďdries in ten minutes.Ē Two hours later I could wipe it off with my finger. A day later it was still soft. Two days later it was almost dry. So itís not just this particular application where dry-time is a problem.)

Also, thereís a product called ďJapan DrierĒ which I bought but have not tried yet. Thatís another route Iíll try if the acetone doesnít work.

For this first-time effort I sanded and prepped the trunk hood, which is already removed from the car. (I thought of doing tests on scrap body panels, which I happen to have many of, but Iím too impatient Ė I need to get this car done and out of the garage, at least for now.) I did not sand down to bare metal, I just took the pits and deep scratches out, and only hit primer in a couple spots. Plus three tiny rust spots, which I did sand down to bare metal, treat with acid until completely clean, fill with body putty and sand. The whole surface was then wet-sanded with #320 before painting, then wiped clean with water, allowed to dry, then wiped again with laquer thinner.

Iím using Rust Oleum #7727 Royal Blue paint, mixed 1:1 with acetone for this first test. Stirred, not shaken. I mixed it in a handy 2.5-quart measuring container with a fairly tight-fitting lid, from Home Depot paint department, a couple bucks. I did the mixing well ahead of the painting Ė it sat in the bucket for hours while I finished the prep Ė but it did not evaporate, at least not enough to differ with the marks on the side of the container. When I re-checked it with the stir-stick later, there didnít appear to have been any settling.



As an aside, I wanted a darker blue paint, but the color options in Hilo, Hawaii are pretty limited. I played around with mixing custom colors, but settled on the factory color because thereís a matching rattle-can color available, which is what I used on the inside of the trunk hood already, and will use on various trim pieces.

At a 1:1 mix hereís what I found:



The good news:
- No problem with air bubbles. Not a single bubble had to be hunted down and popped.
- Dry time was great. I painted at 5 p.m. At 8 it was still tacky, enough to leave a fingerprint. At one in the morning it felt rock hard. Needless to say, at eight this morning, itís still rock hard and glassy.
- Paintability was great also Ė no drips, runs or sags on the vertical hood surface.

The bad news:
- The paint is too thick. This surprised the hell out of me, I figured at 1:1 itíd be too thin, if anything. Thereís not only major orange peel, there are lines from rolling which I couldnít smooth out. I have a pretty good touch with a paint roller, but a second rolling-over from another direction didnít help much.

Unrelated bad news:
- I am **** for body work. The three little rust dots that I sanded down are now three little turds on my nice, shiny, blue-with-orange-peel hood. But actually, this is not news, more like just a depressing reminder. Half the problem seems to be that I canít see it ahead of time, everything looks fine until it gets a shiny coat of paint.

Next up (maybe even today):
- Sand down the orange peel
- 1:2 mixture
avatar
tpirsig
Rank
Rank

Number of posts : 21
Age : 59
Project : Pile of Volvos, '87-'91 / turbo / 740-760-940
Registration date : 2009-05-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Acetone diary

Post by markw on June 19th 2009, 7:21 pm

That looks pretty good for a first coat compared to some I've seen. I wonder if now it's drying too fast to flow out? Maybe add a little mineral spirits? Keep a lot of notes so you can remember what works. Curious about that Japan Drier. The MSDS for it says it's 80% Stoddard Solvent (mineral spirits) but it has cobalt and a few other chemicals in it. Sounds like more than just a thinner since you only use 2 to 4 ounces per gallon of paint. http://www.kleanstrip.com/
avatar
markw
Rank
Rank

Number of posts : 14
Age : 63
Location : Illinois
Job/hobbies : Machinist
Project : 1967 Camaro
Registration date : 2008-06-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Acetone diary

Post by tpirsig on June 20th 2009, 6:14 pm

So I tried a 1:2 mixture. Let's just call it blue acetone, for that's about all it was.

The good news: no air bubbles, and it rollers-on just fine on a vertical surface. I think this is because it's setting up before I even get the roller to the metal.pale

The bad news: it doesn't work.
The not-working came in a variety of ways. My first hint that something was amiss was when little blue snot-balls began to appear in the paint tray. Turns out the acetone was melting the remaining, dry paint from two days before. Guess where else it started doing it: on the car itself. What a Face Not a happy moment. I'd just wet-sanded the bejezus out of it the day before. Oh well, I guess another name for this process is "learn to love wet sanding." (My wife is giving me funny looks, and not-so-subtle hints that perhaps my time could be better spent.)

It did go on a little smoother, but there's zero time to re-roller or otherwise smooth out the orange peel. Sad

I know you guys love pictures, here's the paint tray when I was done. Couldn't bear to shoot the hood itself:
("host an image." I tried like four times, it doesn't connect to the image hosting site. I'm too lazy to post it elsewhere and add a link, plus y'all probably aren't that interested in seeing a tray full of curdled old paint anyways.) Sleep
avatar
tpirsig
Rank
Rank

Number of posts : 21
Age : 59
Project : Pile of Volvos, '87-'91 / turbo / 740-760-940
Registration date : 2009-05-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Acetone diary

Post by tpirsig on June 20th 2009, 7:03 pm

So I went to Plan B, Japan Drier.

Made a one-quart mix of 1:1 mineral spirits and paint. Based on a rough calculation I added one capful of Japan Drier, sold at Home Depot for about $6 a pint (half the online price at that marine supply store).

IT DRIED BEAUTIFULLY. cheers Hard to the touch in about six hours. Minimal orange peel. A million air bubbles when rolled on, but they all fled when blown upon.

Okay, enough screwing around, I'm on my way. Enough with the acetone already.
avatar
tpirsig
Rank
Rank

Number of posts : 21
Age : 59
Project : Pile of Volvos, '87-'91 / turbo / 740-760-940
Registration date : 2009-05-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Acetone diary

Post by RoboGeek on June 20th 2009, 11:02 pm

just a helpful hint... Buy a bunch of those disposable flimsy $1.19 6" paint trim trays from your favorite supplier of hardware goods. I would recommend never reusing a tray, especially one thats using a different chemical mix on the previous use
avatar
RoboGeek
400+ Poster!
400+ Poster!

Number of posts : 429
Age : 55
Location : LeRoy, IL
Job/hobbies : Owner/Business Network Solutions
Project : 93 Cavalier
Registration date : 2009-05-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Acetone diary

Post by markw on June 24th 2009, 10:33 pm

Great to hear you're making progress! So the Japan Drier mix has the same color and gloss? I don't know how that stuff works. Any drawbacks that you've seen? Have you ever used enamel hardener? I hear about that stuff and wonder if it's the same. Thanks for sharing your results with us!
avatar
markw
Rank
Rank

Number of posts : 14
Age : 63
Location : Illinois
Job/hobbies : Machinist
Project : 1967 Camaro
Registration date : 2008-06-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Acetone diary

Post by tpirsig on June 25th 2009, 4:11 pm

Haven't seen any drawbacks yet with the Japan Drier. Haven't used or even known about enamel hardener.

I feel like I'm still dialing-in the ratio of mineral spirits though. At 1:1 it was too runny for the vertical surfaces, I had to go back and keep re-rolling the parts where it was sagging, so I ended up with a textured surface rather than something flat. So I tried 2:1 paint to solvent, this was better but still getting some sag.

Recently I noticed that there wasn't the sag problem when the roller wasn't so loaded. The $1.19 toss-em roller tray I'd been using had little nubs in the roll-out section, but this wasn't enough to really dump the excess paint. Plus the thing dumped over on me once when I pushed too hard, and kept threatening to crack apart. So I picked up a big, nearly-smooth bottomed, won't-tip tray and it went on much better. All of $2-something at Home Depot.

Old versus new:


But I'm still feeling like there's some kind of dialed-in mix for the solvent, where it's going to have time to self-level, but not enough time to run or sag. Maybe I'll play with a mix of acetone and mineral spirits on the next round. Today I'm going to put on coats 5 and 6 and then tomorrow, assemble this car and roll it out of here for awhile. Projects like this aren't fun when there's time-pressure. pale

By the way, I'm in it for the long haul. This was basically the worst of the four Volvos I have, done as a test, and the really nice car, a '91 940, has the clear-coat bubbling away, which is what caused me to start researching paint jobs in the first place. This is what I keep telling my wife, anyways (it's her car). Very Happy

Also, I've got a $18 humidity gauge coming in the mail. That'll help with the dialing-in part.
avatar
tpirsig
Rank
Rank

Number of posts : 21
Age : 59
Project : Pile of Volvos, '87-'91 / turbo / 740-760-940
Registration date : 2009-05-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Acetone diary

Post by markw on July 1st 2009, 6:34 pm

http://doitbest.com/Gloss+enamel-Valspar-model-018.0004625.003-doitbest-sku-772462.dib Not suggesting you buy it here, I just looked for a link to a picture.
avatar
markw
Rank
Rank

Number of posts : 14
Age : 63
Location : Illinois
Job/hobbies : Machinist
Project : 1967 Camaro
Registration date : 2008-06-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Acetone diary

Post by RoboGeek on July 1st 2009, 7:32 pm

really, the self leveling isn't all that important, unless your in conditions like extreme heat/cold where the paint can dry before your done rolling a panel, or never completely harden. The wet sanding really is the secret to these paint jobs. Rolling is just a way to get it thick enough to sand.

The mixture should be aiming for the curing times. You want it to stay workable till you finish a panel so you can work out the lines, etc, yet you want it to cure in 6-8 hrs enough to apply another coat without dissolving the previous coat. And it should be totally dry for wet sanding in 12-15hrs.

No matter how you mix it, its going to have lines, orange peel, bubbles, etc
It all sands out...

I didn't get a chance to try hardener, but that would have cut out my curing time on the last coat before I final sanded and rubbed out
avatar
RoboGeek
400+ Poster!
400+ Poster!

Number of posts : 429
Age : 55
Location : LeRoy, IL
Job/hobbies : Owner/Business Network Solutions
Project : 93 Cavalier
Registration date : 2009-05-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Acetone diary

Post by tpirsig on July 8th 2009, 2:46 pm

The reason I'm trying to dial in the self-leveling better is for less time sanding. On the original Mopar forum the guy with the orange Charger said he gets hardly any orange peel. When I tried 50:50 with the mineral spirits, it was too thin to coat vertical surfaces -- it sagged in spots -- but there were flat places where it laid down with no orange peel. Hey, I've got time to experiment before diving in to the next bit of painting Very Happy

Also, my humidity meter came, so far 'round here it's 75% at 70 degrees temp.
avatar
tpirsig
Rank
Rank

Number of posts : 21
Age : 59
Project : Pile of Volvos, '87-'91 / turbo / 740-760-940
Registration date : 2009-05-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Acetone diary

Post by tpirsig on April 6th 2010, 2:16 pm

A follow-up on this: I finally figured out why the Rust Oleum was so slow to dry in the first place: I'd wiped down the surface with laquer thinner while cleaning it up. This apparently softened things up / affected it so that later coats of RO took forever to dry.
avatar
tpirsig
Rank
Rank

Number of posts : 21
Age : 59
Project : Pile of Volvos, '87-'91 / turbo / 740-760-940
Registration date : 2009-05-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Acetone diary

Post by retired plumber on April 6th 2010, 7:23 pm

Lacquer thinner can be a problem because it will melt or at least soften any spray can primer or enamel paint on the car that is not factory or a baked on repaint. I did the same thing a few times untill I realized that. I would use it on a damp rag for my final wipe down insted of a tack rag (cheaper you know) and I would get blistering later. It finally dawned on me what happened because one day I saw the wipe line patterns in the blistering.
Mike
avatar
retired plumber
1000+ Poster
1000+ Poster

Number of posts : 1004
Age : 73
Location : Tucson Az finally
Job/hobbies : retired honey does and the occasional custom car (old school)
Project : figuring out how to do metalflake
Registration date : 2008-04-27

View user profile http://glasaholic.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Acetone diary

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum