1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by LV2DRFT on February 25th 2012, 11:47 am

K thanks. I'll thin it
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by Poppashango on February 25th 2012, 9:40 pm

Hey LV2DRFT,

I read your posts and your project is coming along! And as it was suggested, learning as you go works if you stick to it. I've received a lot of emails asking how I got my satin paint to flatten and I am positive it was the mineral spirits that changed the look of the paint. Admittedly, I was disappointed at first with how the finish was turning out as I wanted something with a little more shine to it. (I've shot Hot Hues Satin Black before and love the finish) but as I finished the van I really loved the final finish. Not exactly satin, but not flat either. I do know from shooting paint in the past that black will show every imperfection at will. The glossier the finish, the more apparent it is. So I suppose it was just dumb luck it worked out for me...lol.


LV2DRFT wrote:OK... Now I'm discovering why people don't go with flat black. I'm at that proverbial fork in the road. I (thought) I did decent body work... it's decent enough that flat black hides my flaws almost unnoticeably... but poor enough that gloss black makes them stick out like a sore thumb! sigh I really would rather stick with flat black, because I also LOVE the way it comes out visually... and I've gotten my mix just right for my liking!

Problem is I'm getting the exact same problem many people experience when using John Deer Blitz Black: I can literally run my fingernail over the paint and cause permanent rub marks... it's as if the lines made by my fingernail do a little "mini polishing job" to the paint. I've written my name on it, literally, several times. Nothing can get it out short of polishing or sanding... which gives the paint kind of a gun metal semi-gloss look which I wouldn't mind, except for the fact that when you polish a flat coat, your sanding marks and polishing swirls are amplified by a factor of about 15 compared to gloss unflattened (not kidding at all, wish I was!)




"Help Me!" written on my flat black surface by gently using my fingernail. It's like a chalkboard for your fingernail right now.





After sanding 1000 grit and polishing... I also experimented with ONLY using polish to see if I could just sand my way up in grit level then finish with a light polish. Although you couldn't see the 1000 grit marks as pictured below, you could definitely still see (very clearly) the swirl marks from using only polish (I used a microfiber to apply it too). I wouldn't mind this "gun metal" look, if it didn't exaggerate all my sanding and polishing marks so much. These lines are literally 15 times more noticeable than they would be with doing the same procedure on gloss alone (I tested it):


Here's the question:
What can I do to my flat black mix (mentioned in a previous post above) to stop the surface from being this way? I don't want to buy a clear coat... I already was on the phone with Rustoleum about that, they don't sell it, they don't suggest it, not to mention it would be hard to find. I'd like to actually make my flat black durable enough that it won't need a clear coat... you know, like it is when applying gloss. I've used the "roll over lightly" technique to the point where I'm satisfied with the texture, and have no problem putting on my final coat, unsanded, and being happy with it... just that it ends up being so darn fragile to the touch (and gentle rubbing) is driving me CRAZY. I figured someone here has or knows someone who has sprayed a flat paint, and added a "secret ingredient" to it to make it more durable to the touch. My inclination would be to use a hardener... but which hardener? How much should I use? Will a hardener actually do anything to solve my problem or would it just be a waste of money? Is there something else other than a hardener I should use?

As you can probably tell I'm getting frustrated with this, and to go back to gloss would not leave me satisfied with the results, I REAAAAAAAALY don't want to have to sand my entire car back down with 80 grit, re-bondo everything, re-feather everything, then work my way back up just to get a decent looking gloss finish. I'd much rather find a way to make my final flat coat durable. I'd be completely happy with it if I could just find a way to make the finish not be so freakin delicate! frustrated mad3 explains my feelings exactly haha.

... but you all have been such a WONDERFUL help and if someone out there could just help me with this one last problem, I'd be eternally grateful! I've gotten to the top of the mountain, but just can't stick my darn flag in the ground :-)
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by wantajav on February 26th 2012, 10:40 am

I'd say go thinner on future coats but for what is already on there let it sit out in the hot sun for a few weeks.

If it were me, I'd fix the one or two body flaws that are most noticeable then swap over to gloss black using very thin coats. Just think of what you've done so far as a great base coat.

Good luck
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by LV2DRFT on February 27th 2012, 2:45 pm

wantajav wrote:I'd say go thinner on future coats but for what is already on there let it sit out in the hot sun for a few weeks.

If it were me, I'd fix the one or two body flaws that are most noticeable then swap over to gloss black using very thin coats. Just think of what you've done so far as a great base coat.

Good luck

I've been applying every coat thinned 50/50 so far. I was just thinking that going unthinned over the areas that I expose bondo would be better for some odd reason. I've decided to continue thinning everything except the last coat on the wheels bumpers and mirrors because they probably won't be sanded or polished.

I'll try gloss black and if I'm not happy I can do a couple careful thin flat coats over it and just polish them to take care of the rub problem. Hopefully after buying paper all the way up to 3000 I can make the gloss look nice
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by LV2DRFT on February 27th 2012, 3:36 pm

... And I'd better start drinking a ton of coffee for the meticulous bondo feathering I have to do. This time ill be armed with better tools. I bought a 40, 80 and 120 grit block sponge on eBay... I guess now I know why body work Is always so expensive. I have a great newfound respect for pro painters it ain't easy! Wink
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by LV2DRFT on February 28th 2012, 5:21 pm

Here's the areas I have to bondo (...again!) to try and get a straighter/smoother surface for the gloss finish to look decent.

This time I'm using a metal file to make sure everything ends up straighter.







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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by wantajav on February 28th 2012, 6:40 pm

220 grit for the final sand

Primer

Then 320 grit.

Otherwise ---sand scratches
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by LV2DRFT on March 13th 2012, 3:07 pm

So, in the last few weeks I've had to go back to work so I'm only working on the project 2 1/2 days a week. In that time my darling wife got jealous I was spending more time on the car than cleaning the house :-) and decided to set me back about 20 hours by scratching the h4ll out of it! At least she taught me something... no need for bondo or paste on small divots like that... all I had to do was fill up my foam brush with 10% thinned paint and "kiss" the damage with the brush tip... let it dry about 3 days in the hot sun, and sand it back down. I noticed the paint sands a lot easier than bondo would have. So I used the same method on areas of the hood that needed it a little bit too.

Before all that I'd been really fine tuning the body work like I mentioned earlier. Still don't have a perfect result, but I'm really done spending any more time on it... its a lot better than it was the last time around. I've gotten about 8 coats over the areas I've been fixing. Each time I'm sanding better shape into them. I think after this sand and two more coats on Thursday on the problem areas, I'll be ready to apply my final five coats to the entire Jeep and get this thing wrapped up.

The little imperfections are still bugging me with the gloss finish, so I'm going to go to plan B-- wetsanding and polishing flattened paint for the last two coats to hopefully get a semigloss finish. My neighbor sprayed a flat black kit on his motorcycle and said he color sanded, polished and waxed it to get that look... I liked it. I'm thinking here's what I want to do:
* Sand down coat 8 on the reworked areas that's drying right now with 1000
* Put on two more coats on the reworked areas.
(at this point the entire vehicle should be back to the same level I stopped at previously... 1000 grit sanding)
* 1200 sand entire vehicle-- meticulous orange peel removal
* Two coats entire vehicle
* 1500 sand-- meticulous orange peel removal
* Two light coats entire vehicle (flattened)
* 2000 grit sand until all orange peel's gone
* One light coat entire vehicle (flattened)
* 2500 sand-- lightly
* 3000 sand-- lightly
* Then polish a test area to look for sanding marks... polish whole vehicle if there aren't any.

What do you guys think?




Here's some pictures of where I'm at now:


Another angle of my old test area for polishing a flattened coat. I think I sanded this with 600 or 800 under the polish so sanding marks are visible. I like the way it is less reflective than gloss. I remember that sanding marks and water marks underneath seemed more visible on the flat paint... hopefully my strategy above and thorough cleaning after wetsanding will eliminate this (I was still a rookie when I did what you see in the picture below), but any suggestions would be very beneficial before I get to the final steps!! Very Happy




A couple shots of where I'm at with my reworked areas. If you look closely you can see there's still some high spots from where I touched up my wife's craziness wack I still have to touch even those out the next time I sand. The gloss is still bugging me on little areas like the front corner of the hood photo and the little dents and creases in the door...

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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by cac1967 on March 13th 2012, 6:56 pm

Wetsand and stay with the gloss finish , you will not regret it, there come's a time when you just say that's it I'm done, remember it look's 10 time's better than it did and not everyone is going to notice the bad spot's , all they will see is shiney new paint!!!!
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by LV2DRFT on March 13th 2012, 10:13 pm

cac1967 wrote:Wetsand and stay with the gloss finish , you will not regret it, there come's a time when you just say that's it I'm done, remember it look's 10 time's better than it did and not everyone is going to notice the bad spot's , all they will see is shiney new paint!!!!

Do you think it would turn out bad in some way if I did the same thing but with flattened? I think it would look fine that way too, wouldn't it? Any reason I couldn't do it this way?
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by cac1967 on March 13th 2012, 11:58 pm

The flat paint will never really look right unless it is sprayed, I think it looks' pretty dang good in the gloss!!!!!this is the best way to learn paint and body work, just keep fixing all the small place's and you will get it!!!!!
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by way2fasts on March 14th 2012, 1:16 am

if i were you i would leave it how it is, but a few other things that you could have done would have been to get a longer sanding block, i know i bought one that was about 8 inches long, logic behind that is if you sand a much larger area it should all sand the same. also i am not sure what it is called but i bought this light spray paint in which you can lightly coat the area you are sanding to find all of the high and low spots. last thing is there is some finishing glaze that you can use after bondo to try and smooth out the job.
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by LV2DRFT on March 14th 2012, 10:48 am

Yeah I think you're right guys. Everyone seems to be telling me the gloss looks better. It's like I'm the only one who wants to keep trying for polishing flat haha. I think after sanding the hood I'll see how my plan would look and post a picture. If its not good I'll abandon it but it would kill me not to know how it would look
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by LV2DRFT on March 15th 2012, 6:17 pm

Cac1967-

Tried a coat of flat on the hood, sanded, polished, it looked horrible. I guess I just had to see it with my own eyes. Definitely taking your advice and just going for gloss... I just had to try it again because I really loved the way it looked... but you're right... you really can't polish it at all... it just makes it look really scratchy, blotchy and ugly no matter how much detail you do to it. Hopefully someone else someday researching the same thing will learn from me...

DO NOT (under any circumstances) roll on flat black.

At least this now means I'm REALLY close to being finished... maybe next week or the week after!!! Can't wait to post my final pics... you all have been SOOOO helpful!

Very Happy
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by cac1967 on March 15th 2012, 11:56 pm

You are very welcome, just glad I could be of some help, just use your new knowledge to help someone else!!!!!
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by way2fasts on March 16th 2012, 12:46 am

if you still want to do flat black, you can use a product called plasti dip, it comes in spray cans or in quarts that you can put into a sprayer, either way it comes out looking excellent, only downside is that it is temporary and will start to peel off in a year or so.
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by Ricearu on March 16th 2012, 4:36 pm

I rolled on the roof and hood of my subaru wagon satin black and it came out great. I used rustoleum satin black, thinned it with acetone as (can stated to use acetone) 3:2 acetone:paint. did 2 coats this way and never sanded it. leveled out awesome, and looked sweet. those hail dings just "disappeared". only downside is that the acetone ate the rollers after about 10 minutes of painting, they would swell and fall off. affraid
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by Tommy Hillbilly on March 17th 2012, 3:56 am

Ricearu wrote:only downside is that the acetone ate the rollers after about 10 minutes of painting, they would swell and fall off. affraid
LOL. Acetone is better for spraying, as I understand it.
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by cac1967 on March 17th 2012, 2:04 pm

X2 ON THAT!!!! Acetone is as strong as laquer thinner and will do strange things to plastic's and foam!!!!!
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by wantajav on March 19th 2012, 6:15 pm

I've read acetone-rusto sprays dull out real quick.


Just FYI
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by LV2DRFT on March 20th 2012, 11:29 am

I'm staying away from acetone. Just going with MS and Rustoleum, glossy. Two more coats, 1200, two more, 1200, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000 and polish
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by LV2DRFT on March 20th 2012, 4:13 pm

[quote="Poppashango"]Hey LV2DRFT,

I read your posts and your project is coming along! And as it was suggested, learning as you go works if you stick to it. I've received a lot of emails asking how I got my satin paint to flatten and I am positive it was the mineral spirits that changed the look of the paint.

I just accidentally stumbled to the same realization. Maybe it's not doing a lot but going heavy with MS on my doors by accident just gave me satin... At least before sanding... I'm in no mood to experiment anymore but I'll see how it sands down compared to the rest of the car I just did 50-50 ish
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by LV2DRFT on March 20th 2012, 4:16 pm

... Maybe I should do my very last coat about 70% spirits to 30% paint
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by LV2DRFT on March 22nd 2012, 5:35 pm

Too much mineral spirits caused the paint to peel off easily, losing adhesion. 50/50 it is. I decided to just paint the doors grabber green too, same as the diamond plate and bezels. Maybe it will minimize the uneven spots a little better. Doing that and calling it good enough... and now that I bought another can of spray, I get to do my Jeep logo in that color too!
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

Post by LV2DRFT on April 18th 2012, 11:04 pm

Fabbed up a bumper by cutting my old one at the bolts and bondoing in the gaps. Just a regular old fashioned hacksaw did the job (surprisingly well!)








My daughter named her "Cindy" so now it's official :-)
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Re: 1997 Jeep TJ Sport-- Accident Restoration and Black Topside

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